The following e-mail exchange took place between Mrs. Knoll and a student who agreed to have her e-mails posted but wishes to remain anonymous. The student e-mailed Mrs. Knoll, and Mrs. Knoll responded in italics within the student’s e-mail.
Student: Hi Mrs. Knoll, I wanted to respond to your thoughts about tzeniut, but not on the blog, so I decided to email you. I don't think I'll be able to formulate my thoughts as clearly as you were able to, but I will give it a try. I believe that tzeniut is a reflection of one from within. Tzeniut means modest and modesty is something that can only come from within. I think that tzeniut should be the last one on someone's mind who is trying to become more religious. Only after one has accomplished many other mitzvot, and has worked on her/himself, then can one take upon tzeniut. I am constantly bothered by for example, a girl that is not shomer and kisses her boyfriend, but dresses tzeniutly. I wonder, is she faking it? Is she trying to hide behind tzeniut? I know this is a little harsh because it just might be that tzeniut is a mitzvah that is easier for her to follow, but shomer is something that is more difficult, so she chooses to be tzeniut.
Mrs. Knoll: I hear what you're saying and I couldn't agree with you more that tzeniut is a reflection of what is within. However, I don't agree that the within part has to come first and only then be reflected on the outside. I think often, one first starts doing things on the outside and that is precisely what helps create the internal feelings one is striving to achieve. (Mitoch hapeulot nimshachim halevavot - our actions affect our feelings).
Also, I'm not sure why you feel that tzeniut has to come only after most other mitzvot. Meaning, I can certainly understand why it appears hypocritical for a girl who wears only skirts to kiss her boyfriend. And in fact, I personally even agree with you that if she asked me as her teacher which of the 2 she should stop first - wearing pants or kissing her boyfriend, I personally would tell her to stop kissing her boyfriend first, largely b/c a) kissing her boyfriend is according to most (though not all) opinions assur de'oraita, while wearing at least loose pants, according to most opinions is not, and b) b/c as I wrote in my original post, I personally feel that one of the main points of tzeniut is to save her body for her husband in the context of marriage, and I think that not kissing this guy is a way more significant saving of herself than not letting him see her in pants. However, exactly as you wrote, everyone has to do what they feel ready for, and a huge yasher koach to anyone for any and every step he or she takes toward greater shmirat hamitzvot. I don't know if there can be any exactly prescribed path for everyone to follow of what should come first, second, and third. But even if one were to try to outline general guidelines, I'm still not sure why you feel that tzeniut should come last. Since it reflects important Jewish values, and is a powerful statement that one makes that she is trying to live her daily life by God's commands even in an area that is challenging, I'm not saying that it should necessarily be first, but I certainly do not think it should necessarily come last.
Student: But either way, tzenuit should not be something that we do for the sake of looking "froomer". I believe that tzeniut has developed into an external mitzvah that is there to show people "I am froom." And I am guilty of this also. When a girl comes back from Israel, I look to see if she is wearing a skirt or covering her elbows, and then I decide if she is "froom". When I want to be seen as the "froom" girl, I put on a skirt. But another day, I will put on a pair of jeans. I am no longer doing tzeniut for the right reasons.
Mrs. Knoll: I honestly go back and forth myself about how I feel about the "tzeniut to look frummer" thing. On the one hand, I fully agree with you that in its highest, most ideal form, tzeniut really is an internal feeling expressed on the outside and therefore should not be about externally looking frum. However, on the other hand, isn't that a wonderful thing that someone wants to look frum and identify herself as a frum Jew? Sometimes, I even think that may be one of the most valuable aspects of tzeniut - kind of like a girl's form of yarmulke - a way for a Jewish girl to express her pride in being frum and her desire to identify herself and to be identified as such. All too often, we encounter students who are embarrassed to look too frum (or frum at all). Isn't it a fantastic "problem" that someone wants to look frum, even frummer than she really is on the "inside"? In addition, though I agree that there is something off-putting about people doing external things without the sincere feelings and commitment behind them, but the same way as I would of course encourage someone to keep Shabbos rather than violate it even if they are doing so only to follow communal norms, so too, I would rather someone keep the halachot of tzeniut rather than violate them even if not for the most sincere of reasons.
Mrs. Knoll: Much of our focus on tzeniut is NOT about making the school look good. As I wrote in my original post, I truly have come to believe in the deep inherent value of tzeniut (and Shomer Negiah, and all the other laws that preserve the unique sanctity of marriage), and I want our students to recognize it too. However, you are entirely correct in that much of tzeniut is about public perception. Ideally one's level of frumkeit should of course not be judged based exclusively on clothing. However, since it is simply impossible to have a deep, serious conversation with every person we encounter, we simply have no choice other than to base our assumptions about their frumkeit on anything other than what we can externally see. Now, you might say, why make any assumptions at all about anyone else's frumkeit - isn't that judgmental. My answer is No, we need to make assumptions about people (often having nothing to do with frumkeit) all the time for many valid reasons. For example, you go to camp the first day, and you're trying to figure out who is most likely to be similar to you so that you'll relate to each other, understand each other, and have fun together. Of course, we can also often become close friends with people not similar to ourselves, and sometimes we misjudge and find that someone is much more similar to us than we thought at first, but my point is that it is not only normal and unavoidable to make assumptions about people, but it's even a healthy thing to do, as long as we remain open-minded and don't dislike those we think are dissimilar and even remain open to the fact that they may become one of our closest friends.
All that being said, as I wrote, you are correct in that PART of why feel tzeniut is important is because of the public perception it creates about our students. Ideally, I wish everyone would come to Ma'ayanot and meet our students and talk to them (and read our blog!) and see how incredibly thoughtful, passionate, and committed you all are. But that is simply unrealistic. Most people have no choice other than to base their assumptions about Ma'ayanot largely on what they externally see of our students in the pizza shop, in the mall, in shul, wherever. And it would be foolish on our part to ignore that reality. In addition to which, since tzeniut is in fact a halachah, they are not entirely wrong to make certain assumptions about our students' commitment to halachah based on their commitment to this particular halachah.
Furthermore, and Rabbi Besser talks about this a lot, Ma'ayanot really stands for something. In many ways, we are among the flag bearers of Modern Orthodoxy in general and of the women's learning movement in particular. We are one of the only all-girls schools in existence that is passionately frum while simultaneoulsy being passionately committed to giving girls a top-notch education in all realms, including Torah She'be'al Peh. Many, many people are still skeptical about women learning Gemara precisely b/c they feel that so many of the women who learn Gemara are not seriously committed to halachah. If we want not just Ma'ayanot to succeed, but the entire women's learning movement to succeed, it is absolutely imperative that we, as individuals and as a school, dispell and disprove this association between women learning Gemara and lack of commitment to halachah. And built on what I wrote above, since many of the people skeptically tracking the development of this movement (which is so close to my heart!) are doing so from afar without personal access to large numbers of us, all they have to judge us Gemara learners' frumkeit by is our external dress - our commitment to tzeniut. Thus, even if tzeniut did not have deeper significance (which I firmly believe it does), I still think it would be incumbent upon us to adhere to tzeniut simply as a way to make a public statement, "See - we are frum!" (I can totally understand that this might be a very frustrating reason for anyone who doesn't particularly care about women being able to learn Gemara, but again, I do not think this is the only reason behind tzeniut in general, or Ma'ayanot's pushing it in particular. I do think tzeniut has deep, inherent value, as I wrote in my original post.)
Student: But if one still wants to say that the school stresses tzeniut because it is a mitzvah that is on the same level as kashrus and shabbos, then why are those other "big" mitzvos not stressed in a school environment. In the modern orthodox high school world, kashrus and shabbos are just as violated as tzeniut is. I went to a certain elementary school, and not only are my old friends from there not dressing appropriately, but they are also eating non-kosher (gum, candy, dairy restaurants) and are violating shabbos (cell phones) on a weekly basis. If a school really cares about tzenius being followed because it is such a "big" mitzvah, then shouldn't shabbos and kashrus also be just as stressed so that the school can make sure its students are following those laws also?
Mrs. Knoll: You are absolutely right - of course one hundred thousand percent Shabbos and Kashrut should be stressed at least as much as tzeniut! Of course we don't think it's OK if our students are texting on Shabbos as long as they're wearing a skirt while doing it! In Ma'ayanot we devote an entire year of halachah to studying Hilchot Shabbos and devote an entire other year to learning Hilchot Kashrut, while Hilchot Tzeniut only receive about 6 weeks in 12th grade (though I know we speak about it informally other years as well). I hope that we have not somehow unwittingly given the impression that those mitzvot are not important to us. God forbid! Please let me know if we somehow did imply that we don't care about those mitzvot or that we would rather our students wear a skirt than keep Shabbos. I can't imagine that we did, but sometimes we imply things we don't mean so please let me know if clarification is needed to the student body at large.
I am deeply saddened and disturbed by what you wrote about so many of your elementary school friends violating Shabbos and Kashrut on a regular basis - it is tragic and truly, deeply disturbing. And I hope that those schools are addressing the issue and are encouraging their students to grow in their Shabbos and Kashrut observance. I think the reason we in Ma'ayanot tend to talk more about tzeniut than Shabbos or Kashrut (though again, in halacha classes, Shabbos and Kashrut get WAY more time than tzeniut) is NOT b/c we think tzeniut is more important but b/c our assumption is that our students are not flagrantly violating Shabbos and Kashrut, while many of them are flagrantly violating tzeniut, so tzeniut needs more encouragement than the other 2. If I am incorrect in assuming this about Shabbos and Kashrut, please please let me know, b/c then we certainly need to start reemphasizing them.
*Note: The student wrote back, “You are right in Ma'ayanot students are not usually violating shabbos and eating non kosher.” That’s a relief!
Student: And furthermore how can a school just decide which is the biggest mitzvah it should stress? We don't know what Hashem was thinking when He commanded us to be tzeniut, so how are we allowed to single that mitzvah out and say we are all going to make sure the students follow this mitzvah? Again, I feel like schools push tzeniut for the wrong reasons.
Mrs. Knoll: I hear your point, and you are right - we don't know what God had in mind. But tzeniut is a mitzvah that our students are flagrantly violating right in front of our faces every day, so how can we not say something? If we saw students flagrantly violating Kashrut or Shabbos or any other mitzvah right in front of our faces, of course we would say something about those too. Of course we would never let a student walk in with a cheeseburger and eat it in front of us without saying something! Of course we would never have allowed a student to walk into the elevator at the Shabbaton on Shabbos without saying something! So why should we let students walk around in front of us with skirts above their knees and not say something? We want our students to follow EVERY mitzvah; tzeniut is not the only mitzvah we care about. The reason we seem to be singling out tzeniut more than others is just that the very nature of tzeniut makes it right in front of our faces every day, while other violations, if they are happening (which I fervently hope they are not among Ma'ayanot students in the way you described your elementary school friends), are happening where we don't see them.
Student: I agree with your old view that a school should be focusing more on pushing the students to daven on non-school days, stop speaking lashon hara, make brachas, and daven with more cavana, to name a few. Personally, I struggle with these things every day and I am not even looking at the tzeniut part because I don't see myself as being ready. I still get lazy on sunday mornings, forget brachas constantly, still speak badly of people, and lack cavana in my davening! I wish that my school could teach me, guide me, and stress those things, not just tzeniut.
Mrs. Knoll: We would love to!! Is there something specific you have in mind? A chavruta? A schmooze? A suggestion of books or articles to read? A class discussion about it? A one-on-one discussion? I really hope we have not given the impression that the only area of growth we care about is tzeniut. God forbid! Of course these other areas are vitally important too. I really do not want us to fail you in teaching you and guiding you in these extremely important areas. Please help us help you. I really really mean it. Is there something I personally can do?
*Note: The student wrote back with a number of suggestions and they plan on starting to implement some together.
Student: Finally, I understand that tzeniut, as you said, represents the idea that we believe that our bodies are sacred and should be treated with self-dignity and self-respect. So if it is really about that, shouldn't tzeniut be something one takes upon her/himself? Not something that someone is constantly getting in trouble for. And if a school cares so much about every student having a sense of self-respect, then why bog students down on the tiny details that her skirt has a slit above her knee or when she bends down her shirt is no longer tzeniut? Tzeniut should be something taught and encouraged to all students. After the rules and forcing is done with, students may begin to see tzeniut as a burden, not as something that shows self-respect for one's body and represents one modesty from within.
Mrs. Knoll: That is very true and it is a danger we are well aware of. However, the opposite problem is that if we don't say anything and don't try to enforce the laws of tzeniut, then by walking past short skirts every day and not saying anything, we would essentially be giving the message that we don't care, that tzeniut is not important, that the short skirts are totally OK. You are right, I wish everyone would decide to take tzeniut on herself, without us having to say or do anything. (Trust me, you have no idea how much I wish it. Besides for it clearly being the ideal in terms of the meaningfulness of the mitzvah, getting people in trouble and telling them they have to change is terribly unpleasant.) But if we don't say anything, what would ever spur anyone to come to it on her own? And if the answer is just to do educational programming but not enforce it, that goes back to what I wrote above - if a student came in to Ma'ayanot with a cheeseburger, we would never simply have an educational, inspirational talk with her about it, but conclude that the decision to stop eating it is something she has to come to on her own - of course we would take it away! Why should tzeniut be different?
Anyway, both of us (Mrs. Knoll and the student) hope that this exchange is meaningful to some of you. Keep learning, thinking, and growing!
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