E-mail exchange in reaction to tzeniut post

The following e-mail exchange took place between Mrs. Knoll and a student who agreed to have her e-mails posted but wishes to remain anonymous. The student e-mailed Mrs. Knoll, and Mrs. Knoll responded in italics within the student’s e-mail.


Student: Hi Mrs. Knoll, I wanted to respond to your thoughts about tzeniut, but not on the blog, so I decided to email you. I don't think I'll be able to formulate my thoughts as clearly as you were able to, but I will give it a try. I believe that tzeniut is a reflection of one from within. Tzeniut means modest and modesty is something that can only come from within. I think that tzeniut should be the last one on someone's mind who is trying to become more religious. Only after one has accomplished many other mitzvot, and has worked on her/himself, then can one take upon tzeniut. I am constantly bothered by for example, a girl that is not shomer and kisses her boyfriend, but dresses tzeniutly. I wonder, is she faking it? Is she trying to hide behind tzeniut? I know this is a little harsh because it just might be that tzeniut is a mitzvah that is easier for her to follow, but shomer is something that is more difficult, so she chooses to be tzeniut.

Mrs. Knoll: I hear what you're saying and I couldn't agree with you more that tzeniut is a reflection of what is within. However, I don't agree that the within part has to come first and only then be reflected on the outside. I think often, one first starts doing things on the outside and that is precisely what helps create the internal feelings one is striving to achieve. (Mitoch hapeulot nimshachim halevavot - our actions affect our feelings).

Also, I'm not sure why you feel that tzeniut has to come only after most other mitzvot. Meaning, I can certainly understand why it appears hypocritical for a girl who wears only skirts to kiss her boyfriend. And in fact, I personally even agree with you that if she asked me as her teacher which of the 2 she should stop first - wearing pants or kissing her boyfriend, I personally would tell her to stop kissing her boyfriend first, largely b/c a) kissing her boyfriend is according to most (though not all) opinions assur de'oraita, while wearing at least loose pants, according to most opinions is not, and b) b/c as I wrote in my original post, I personally feel that one of the main points of tzeniut is to save her body for her husband in the context of marriage, and I think that not kissing this guy is a way more significant saving of herself than not letting him see her in pants. However, exactly as you wrote, everyone has to do what they feel ready for, and a huge yasher koach to anyone for any and every step he or she takes toward greater shmirat hamitzvot. I don't know if there can be any exactly prescribed path for everyone to follow of what should come first, second, and third. But even if one were to try to outline general guidelines, I'm still not sure why you feel that tzeniut should come last. Since it reflects important Jewish values, and is a powerful statement that one makes that she is trying to live her daily life by God's commands even in an area that is challenging, I'm not saying that it should necessarily be first, but I certainly do not think it should necessarily come last.


Student: But either way, tzenuit should not be something that we do for the sake of looking "froomer". I believe that tzeniut has developed into an external mitzvah that is there to show people "I am froom." And I am guilty of this also. When a girl comes back from Israel, I look to see if she is wearing a skirt or covering her elbows, and then I decide if she is "froom". When I want to be seen as the "froom" girl, I put on a skirt. But another day, I will put on a pair of jeans. I am no longer doing tzeniut for the right reasons.

Mrs. Knoll: I honestly go back and forth myself about how I feel about the "tzeniut to look frummer" thing. On the one hand, I fully agree with you that in its highest, most ideal form, tzeniut really is an internal feeling expressed on the outside and therefore should not be about externally looking frum. However, on the other hand, isn't that a wonderful thing that someone wants to look frum and identify herself as a frum Jew? Sometimes, I even think that may be one of the most valuable aspects of tzeniut - kind of like a girl's form of yarmulke - a way for a Jewish girl to express her pride in being frum and her desire to identify herself and to be identified as such. All too often, we encounter students who are embarrassed to look too frum (or frum at all). Isn't it a fantastic "problem" that someone wants to look frum, even frummer than she really is on the "inside"? In addition, though I agree that there is something off-putting about people doing external things without the sincere feelings and commitment behind them, but the same way as I would of course encourage someone to keep Shabbos rather than violate it even if they are doing so only to follow communal norms, so too, I would rather someone keep the halachot of tzeniut rather than violate them even if not for the most sincere of reasons.

Student: I think that you said that the reason that Ma'ayanot (and other schools) stress tzeniut is because it really is a mitzvah that may be as important as kashrus or shabbos. However, when teachers are constantly telling me that my skirt is too short or my shirt is too low, and when the schools is always implementing new rules in regards to tzeniut, it gives me the impression that all the school really wants is to make sure that the school is represented well and looks good. The school wants the girls to look tzeniut so the school could look like it has the better girls (does tzeniut really represent better girls?) and that it is a religious environment.

Mrs. Knoll: Much of our focus on tzeniut is NOT about making the school look good. As I wrote in my original post, I truly have come to believe in the deep inherent value of tzeniut (and Shomer Negiah, and all the other laws that preserve the unique sanctity of marriage), and I want our students to recognize it too. However, you are entirely correct in that much of tzeniut is about public perception. Ideally one's level of frumkeit should of course not be judged based exclusively on clothing. However, since it is simply impossible to have a deep, serious conversation with every person we encounter, we simply have no choice other than to base our assumptions about their frumkeit on anything other than what we can externally see. Now, you might say, why make any assumptions at all about anyone else's frumkeit - isn't that judgmental. My answer is No, we need to make assumptions about people (often having nothing to do with frumkeit) all the time for many valid reasons. For example, you go to camp the first day, and you're trying to figure out who is most likely to be similar to you so that you'll relate to each other, understand each other, and have fun together. Of course, we can also often become close friends with people not similar to ourselves, and sometimes we misjudge and find that someone is much more similar to us than we thought at first, but my point is that it is not only normal and unavoidable to make assumptions about people, but it's even a healthy thing to do, as long as we remain open-minded and don't dislike those we think are dissimilar and even remain open to the fact that they may become one of our closest friends.

All that being said, as I wrote, you are correct in that PART of why feel tzeniut is important is because of the public perception it creates about our students. Ideally, I wish everyone would come to Ma'ayanot and meet our students and talk to them (and read our blog!) and see how incredibly thoughtful, passionate, and committed you all are. But that is simply unrealistic. Most people have no choice other than to base their assumptions about Ma'ayanot largely on what they externally see of our students in the pizza shop, in the mall, in shul, wherever. And it would be foolish on our part to ignore that reality. In addition to which, since tzeniut is in fact a halachah, they are not entirely wrong to make certain assumptions about our students' commitment to halachah based on their commitment to this particular halachah.

Furthermore, and Rabbi Besser talks about this a lot, Ma'ayanot really stands for something. In many ways, we are among the flag bearers of Modern Orthodoxy in general and of the women's learning movement in particular. We are one of the only all-girls schools in existence that is passionately frum while simultaneoulsy being passionately committed to giving girls a top-notch education in all realms, including Torah She'be'al Peh. Many, many people are still skeptical about women learning Gemara precisely b/c they feel that so many of the women who learn Gemara are not seriously committed to halachah. If we want not just Ma'ayanot to succeed, but the entire women's learning movement to succeed, it is absolutely imperative that we, as individuals and as a school, dispell and disprove this association between women learning Gemara and lack of commitment to halachah. And built on what I wrote above, since many of the people skeptically tracking the development of this movement (which is so close to my heart!) are doing so from afar without personal access to large numbers of us, all they have to judge us Gemara learners' frumkeit by is our external dress - our commitment to tzeniut. Thus, even if tzeniut did not have deeper significance (which I firmly believe it does), I still think it would be incumbent upon us to adhere to tzeniut simply as a way to make a public statement, "See - we are frum!" (I can totally understand that this might be a very frustrating reason for anyone who doesn't particularly care about women being able to learn Gemara, but again, I do not think this is the only reason behind tzeniut in general, or Ma'ayanot's pushing it in particular. I do think tzeniut has deep, inherent value, as I wrote in my original post.)

Student: But if one still wants to say that the school stresses tzeniut because it is a mitzvah that is on the same level as kashrus and shabbos, then why are those other "big" mitzvos not stressed in a school environment. In the modern orthodox high school world, kashrus and shabbos are just as violated as tzeniut is. I went to a certain elementary school, and not only are my old friends from there not dressing appropriately, but they are also eating non-kosher (gum, candy, dairy restaurants) and are violating shabbos (cell phones) on a weekly basis. If a school really cares about tzenius being followed because it is such a "big" mitzvah, then shouldn't shabbos and kashrus also be just as stressed so that the school can make sure its students are following those laws also?

Mrs. Knoll: You are absolutely right - of course one hundred thousand percent Shabbos and Kashrut should be stressed at least as much as tzeniut! Of course we don't think it's OK if our students are texting on Shabbos as long as they're wearing a skirt while doing it! In Ma'ayanot we devote an entire year of halachah to studying Hilchot Shabbos and devote an entire other year to learning Hilchot Kashrut, while Hilchot Tzeniut only receive about 6 weeks in 12th grade (though I know we speak about it informally other years as well). I hope that we have not somehow unwittingly given the impression that those mitzvot are not important to us. God forbid! Please let me know if we somehow did imply that we don't care about those mitzvot or that we would rather our students wear a skirt than keep Shabbos. I can't imagine that we did, but sometimes we imply things we don't mean so please let me know if clarification is needed to the student body at large.

I am deeply saddened and disturbed by what you wrote about so many of your elementary school friends violating Shabbos and Kashrut on a regular basis - it is tragic and truly, deeply disturbing. And I hope that those schools are addressing the issue and are encouraging their students to grow in their Shabbos and Kashrut observance. I think the reason we in Ma'ayanot tend to talk more about tzeniut than Shabbos or Kashrut (though again, in halacha classes, Shabbos and Kashrut get WAY more time than tzeniut) is NOT b/c we think tzeniut is more important but b/c our assumption is that our students are not flagrantly violating Shabbos and Kashrut, while many of them are flagrantly violating tzeniut, so tzeniut needs more encouragement than the other 2. If I am incorrect in assuming this about Shabbos and Kashrut, please please let me know, b/c then we certainly need to start reemphasizing them.

*Note: The student wrote back, “You are right in Ma'ayanot students are not usually violating shabbos and eating non kosher.” That’s a relief!

Student: And furthermore how can a school just decide which is the biggest mitzvah it should stress? We don't know what Hashem was thinking when He commanded us to be tzeniut, so how are we allowed to single that mitzvah out and say we are all going to make sure the students follow this mitzvah? Again, I feel like schools push tzeniut for the wrong reasons.

Mrs. Knoll: I hear your point, and you are right - we don't know what God had in mind. But tzeniut is a mitzvah that our students are flagrantly violating right in front of our faces every day, so how can we not say something? If we saw students flagrantly violating Kashrut or Shabbos or any other mitzvah right in front of our faces, of course we would say something about those too. Of course we would never let a student walk in with a cheeseburger and eat it in front of us without saying something! Of course we would never have allowed a student to walk into the elevator at the Shabbaton on Shabbos without saying something! So why should we let students walk around in front of us with skirts above their knees and not say something? We want our students to follow EVERY mitzvah; tzeniut is not the only mitzvah we care about. The reason we seem to be singling out tzeniut more than others is just that the very nature of tzeniut makes it right in front of our faces every day, while other violations, if they are happening (which I fervently hope they are not among Ma'ayanot students in the way you described your elementary school friends), are happening where we don't see them.

Student: I agree with your old view that a school should be focusing more on pushing the students to daven on non-school days, stop speaking lashon hara, make brachas, and daven with more cavana, to name a few. Personally, I struggle with these things every day and I am not even looking at the tzeniut part because I don't see myself as being ready. I still get lazy on sunday mornings, forget brachas constantly, still speak badly of people, and lack cavana in my davening! I wish that my school could teach me, guide me, and stress those things, not just tzeniut.

Mrs. Knoll: We would love to!! Is there something specific you have in mind? A chavruta? A schmooze? A suggestion of books or articles to read? A class discussion about it? A one-on-one discussion? I really hope we have not given the impression that the only area of growth we care about is tzeniut. God forbid! Of course these other areas are vitally important too. I really do not want us to fail you in teaching you and guiding you in these extremely important areas. Please help us help you. I really really mean it. Is there something I personally can do?

*Note: The student wrote back with a number of suggestions and they plan on starting to implement some together.

Student: Finally, I understand that tzeniut, as you said, represents the idea that we believe that our bodies are sacred and should be treated with self-dignity and self-respect. So if it is really about that, shouldn't tzeniut be something one takes upon her/himself? Not something that someone is constantly getting in trouble for. And if a school cares so much about every student having a sense of self-respect, then why bog students down on the tiny details that her skirt has a slit above her knee or when she bends down her shirt is no longer tzeniut? Tzeniut should be something taught and encouraged to all students. After the rules and forcing is done with, students may begin to see tzeniut as a burden, not as something that shows self-respect for one's body and represents one modesty from within.

Mrs. Knoll: That is very true and it is a danger we are well aware of. However, the opposite problem is that if we don't say anything and don't try to enforce the laws of tzeniut, then by walking past short skirts every day and not saying anything, we would essentially be giving the message that we don't care, that tzeniut is not important, that the short skirts are totally OK. You are right, I wish everyone would decide to take tzeniut on herself, without us having to say or do anything. (Trust me, you have no idea how much I wish it. Besides for it clearly being the ideal in terms of the meaningfulness of the mitzvah, getting people in trouble and telling them they have to change is terribly unpleasant.) But if we don't say anything, what would ever spur anyone to come to it on her own? And if the answer is just to do educational programming but not enforce it, that goes back to what I wrote above - if a student came in to Ma'ayanot with a cheeseburger, we would never simply have an educational, inspirational talk with her about it, but conclude that the decision to stop eating it is something she has to come to on her own - of course we would take it away! Why should tzeniut be different?

Anyway, both of us (Mrs. Knoll and the student) hope that this exchange is meaningful to some of you. Keep learning, thinking, and growing!

Student Reaction to Tzniut

First off I just want to mention that I love reading the blog and I’ve really enjoyed reading the posts on this topic and the one about colleges.

So I don’t know about most people but I know that I personally have never really gone through that change where I started dressing more tzniutly. Once I turned 12 I just took it upon myself to always wear skirts that cover my knee and wear shirts that came high enough and sleeves that came past my elbow. I believe that I chose to do this based on the people I was friends with in school, so I never really went through I transformation. I do strongly believe in the way I dress though. Over the years I’ve grown into the way I dress and it really has become a part of who I am and how I am defined as a person. I personally think that elbows and knees are really ugly so there isn’t any reason to want to show them, but at the same time I also think that there are some things that are only meant for your husband.

Now I don’t know if I would go as far as saying that tzniut is more important than davening (but I don’t think that it is less important either, I think it is two separate issues) because if you think about it, davening is something between you and G-d, something that no one else is a part of other than yourself. Tzniut on the other hand, is something that G-d sees as well as others. The sense of intimacy with G-d when davening is done in one’s own privacy, while the tzniut aspect is shown to the world.

As Mrs. Knoll said, “tzniut is not just about the clothing we wear, it’s not even just about the way we behave and carry ourselves.” I think that the way we behave and carry ourselves either sets a kiddush Hashem or a chilul Hashem so why would people want to represent themselves badly? Don’t you realize that EVERYONE is looking? I definitely agree with Mrs. Knoll when she said that the way we dress and carry ourselves shows a sense of dignity and self-worth. We were all made b’tzelem Elokim and the image of G-d that we walk around with shouldn't be treated inappropriately. It shows that you respect yourself and the body that Hashem gave you.

As I said earlier, the way I dress has become a part of who I am and how I am defined as a person. This is a good and bad thing. Although the way people judge me happens to be for what I really am, the basis for their judging is completely incorrect. For example, my friend’s boyfriend only knew of me and thought I was weird just because I dress “frum,” but once he got to know me through her, he realized that I’m not that weird girl that he thought I was. As we can see, unfortunately, people do judge you by the way you look and why would you want to make a bad name for yourself?

Relating back to the theme of Shabbaton, every single one of us has the CHOICE to represent ourselves in a way that we want to be seen. I wish that everyone could see this as easily as I see it, and I hope that this makes an impression on everyone.

Thanks Mrs. Knoll for posing some grand-slam topics!

Rebecca Schenker

פרשת וירא

At the Shabbaton, the Divrei Torah this year were particularly outstanding - Yasher Koach to Atara, Tamar, Eliana, Shira & Ms. Appel. I found it interesting though, that at Maayanot, we heard exclusively about אברהם with not much attention paid to שרה. Therefore, I'm posting an idea that was once circulated in the now defunct Maayanot Parsha Points. I hope you enjoy & please send feedback.

Let us start off with a number of questions.
· אברהם found out that he and שרה were going to have יצחק at the end of לך לך. Yet, three days later, the מלאכים came to tell him the exact same news with שרה overhearing? Why was it necessary for Hashem to tell either of them, let alone twice, of יצחק's pending arrival? Why couldn't they find out the way that everyone else does?
· If שרה's נבואה was greater than אברהם's, why was he told directly by Hashem & she through a מלאך (who wasn't even talking to her!)?
· Why did Hashem reprimand שרה for her laughter, when אברהם also laughed when he was told they would have יצחק? Rashi (based on תרגום אונקלוס) explain that the laughter of אברהם expressed joy, while שרה’s was cynical and doubtful, but why would that be? And even if it were true, אברהם heard the נבואה from Hashem. שרה heard the rantings of three Arabic nomads. Why would she be expected to take it seriously?
· שרה’s reaction is completely irrational. רש"י (יח:ח) tells us that the bread that she prepared was never served because “פירסה נדה” at the age of 89. With theנס process already in motion, why would her reaction be so skeptical? Once her body was miraculously rejuvenated, is ואדני זקן that much more of an obstacle?

We have often discussed the concept of each of the אבות and אמהות embodying a certain מידה, which means not merely a good quality that they had, but a theological approach as to the proper way to serve Hashem (see chart below). When we say that אברהם was an איש חסד, it means that he was active, externally focused in his עבודת ד'. Perhaps it also refers to a degree of spiritual optimism. We know that שרה personified גבורה (like her son יצחק). Maybe that implies the reverse. Based on the story in the Midrash, an early if not initial exposure to G-d for both אברהם and שרה was the story of the כבשן האש. אברהם stood up for Hashem and was miraculously saved, שרה watched her father הרן do the same, and be burnt alive. Maybe this helped foster within each of them differing approaches to נס. To אברהם, anything was possible. When faced with a seeming contradiction – G-d’s promise that he would be the father of a great nation and his childlessness into old age, or even the same promise against the commandment to sacrifice יצחק – he knew that his is not to reason why, and that Hashem can make it right in the end. שרה on the other hand dealt with the practical, and was emotionally reluctant to rely on ניסים. Therefore, when her child-bearing years passed with no children, she assumed that the ברכה would be fulfilled through ישמעאל, but never dreamt that she would still be destined to be the mother of this nation. The שטן (according to "רש"י) knew that once he told that יצחק was on the מזבח, he would never reach the happy ending.

This is not a value judgment. שרה’s approach was not necessarily worse than אברהם’s, in fact sometimes her spiritual pessimism was proper. When ישמעאל was not turning out as planned, אברהם could only see his potential. It was שרה and her pragmatism that correctly recognized him באשר הוא שם – as he was – and Hashem explicitly told אברהם to concede to her superior judgment.

We noted last week that a נסיון is designed to test the subject in his potential area of weakness. אברהם didn’t need to be tested in the realm of חסד; his נסיון, the עקידה, struck at his potential spiritual Achilles heel – גבורה. אברהם hearing from Hashem was the default. Of course had שרה received the news in the same way she would have reacted as אברהם did. The מלאכים came to visit שרה, and asked for her before they started speaking, but אברהם responds “הנה באהל”. רש"י explains that צנועה היא. We understand, this to refer to her feminine modesty in line with the way we contemporarily use the term. Maybe a supplemental reading can be that in line with her גבורה personality, she remained hidden from the guests, who then had to talk at her instead of to her. Perhaps שרה’s נסיון was to recognize the possibility of נס. True, she heard the news from less than reliable sources, and had no obligation to believe it. But what was expected was that she not dismiss it out of hand. “היפלא מד' דבר” ? Hashem’s rebuke explains שרה’s crime. By cynically ruling out a miraculous conclusion to her story, שרה falls short of G-d’s expectation. This is not to say that שרה was a spiritual failure or any less than the אם ישראל we know her to be. Yet, the תורה is clear that Hashem is upset with her, so our job is to figure out why. The above may be a step in that pursuit.

Thoughts on Tzeniut

I want to share with you my own evolving thoughts about tzeniut because I personally have undergone a huge change in my perspective on the topic over the last few months, and actually feel like that change is still ongoing; I am, even as I write this, still not 100% sure what I think. But I wanted to post my current thoughts, and I would love to hear feedback from you all; I’m hoping this blog post will help me clarify my own thoughts on the issue.

Up until some time last year, I was a strong advocate AGAINST making tzniut a big deal in Ma’ayanot. You can ask Mrs. Billet to verify, but the issue came up numerous times over the last number of years both at faculty meetings and parlor meetings, and I always felt, “Why is everyone making such a big deal about skirts? There are so many more important issues on which we should be focusing our attention, such as encouraging our students to daven even on non-school days, for example. Isn’t encouraging our students to devote time every single day to their personal relationship with God a more important and more meaningful expression of their commitment to Judaism than the clothes they wear?”

However, after many years of expressing the above sentiment, my thoughts have changed radically over the last few months. I am not sure what triggered my rethinking of the issue, but what I’ve begun to wonder (and am still in the middle of wondering) is the following:

Maybe tzniut really IS that important. Maybe it IS more important even than davening every day. Maybe it can even be considered on par with the most weighty of mitzvot, such as Shabbat and Kashrut. Again, I’m still not 100% sure what I believe; I’m still thinking it through myself. But a year ago, I would never have even entertained the possibility that tzniut could be considered on an equal level with something like Shabbat or Kashrut, while now I not only consider the possibility, I even lean toward saying that it may be correct. Let me explain the change in my thinking:

What I have come to realize is that tzeniut is not just about the clothing we wear, it’s not even just about the way we behave and carry ourselves. Tzeniut represents and is the first step in an entire world-view that encompasses such far-reaching and critical arenas as one’s perspective on oneself, one’s body, self-worth, sexuality, and the sanctity of marriage to name a few. As a Modern Orthodox Jew, I firmly believe in the value of the secular world and do not think that we must constantly be distancing ourselves from it. However, in these particular areas, I think that the Jewish world-view differs radically from that of the culture in which we live. I think that tzeniut is so tremendously important because it is a “kol demama daka” – a still, small voice expressing a powerful message about the sanctity of oneself, one’s body, and ultimately one’s marriage that stands in such stark contrast to the messages with which we are bombarded by the world around us.

The Jewish world-view, of which tzeniut is a critical part, believes that our bodies are sacred, and should be treated with dignity and self-respect. We should not just be flaunting our bodies to anyone and everyone who passes by. They are too precious for that. We should be protecting them, not just in the sense of safety, but in the sense of preserving them for the special someone who loves us and cares for us enough to deserve to share them. Only someone who truly appreciates us and understands us for who we are should be able to fully see and have access to the physical body that is us.

This message affects everything, from dressing and carrying ourselves in a way that reflects a sense of dignity and self-worth; to perceiving our bodies and our relationships as sacred; to saving certain singular experiences to be shared only with the one person to whom we commit ourselves and who is committed to us fully and for life; to the uniqueness, sanctity, and loyalty that hopefully exists in Jewish marriages as a result; to the strong, everlasting community that can be built on these powerful values and meaningful relationships.

No wonder so many parents and educators have placed such a heavy emphasis on tzeniut for years. I have only begun to think of the broader implications of tzeniut recently myself, but I am coming to believe that tzeniut really is way, way more than just the clothing we wear, but rather that an entire component of the Jewish world view is rooted in the concept of tzeniut – in the idea of treating our bodies with dignity and self-respect, and preserving them for the ultimate relationship.

Yet Another Post on College: My Decision to Transfer from Stern to Barnard

I wanted to add one more perspective to the Stern/secular college debate, since I began my studies at Stern and then transferred to Barnard after one year. Mrs. Knoll, Mrs. Sinensky, Mrs. Appel, Jenn, and Rachel have all made excellent points, and it’s clear that everyone approaches this topic from a different vantage point.


Which is why I agree so strongly with Ms. Appel: this is a deeply personal decision. It is based on many factors, some of them tangible and some of them not. At the end of the day, this decision comes from your gut: where will you be happiest spending 3-4 years of your life? Which imperfect environment—for all colleges are imperfect—will fulfill your needs in the best way?

Mrs. Knoll mentions the need to seriously consider the incredible learning opportunities Stern offers, and what you might lose by choosing another school. I could not agree more. The learning at Stern is stellar, and was the number one reason I hesitated leaving Stern. It is also the reason I enrolled in the Stern Graduate Talmud Program after graduating from Barnard. Throughout my three years in Barnard, I was fully aware of what I had given up: making the time for regular chavrutas was a huge challenge (consider how difficult it is to learn for two hours when you have two midterms the next day!), and though I devoted a lot of time and effort to learning, learning on your own is just not the same as having a formal shiur that truly holds you responsible for the material.

That said, I have to agree with Rachel that the passion of the committed Jewish students on campus is truly inspiring. People learned at all hours of the day, juggling heavy workloads with regular chavrutas and shiurim, not to mention other important educational and social Hillel programs and other commitments. Learning was a major priority of my secular college Orthodox community; though I sacrificed the rigor of a truly formal shiur by leaving Stern, never once did I feel I sacrificed a religiously motivated group of friends. (And it always seemed to me that Ma’ayanot graduates were the best prepared for continuing their learning on their own!)

However, all of this comes with one major caveat: I went to a school with a large Orthodox community. Finding religious passion and widespread commitment to learning and growth is certainly not this easy on every campus; in fact, on most campuses, it is much harder. I benefited tremendously from motivating myself, and from interacting with people different from myself, both Jewish and non-Jewish, but I always had a strong group of Orthodox friends. I agree with Ms. Appel that there is little value in challenge for challenge's sake. When making a decision about college, realize how much of a difference having like-minded friends will make. Three to four years is a long time to do something if you don’t have a lot of support.


One other point: Mrs. Knoll mentioned the issue of prioritizing either your secular or Judaic Studies education in deciding where to go to college. When I was making my decision, I really struggled with this issue: did going to secular college mean I didn’t value learning as much as I valued my secular education? In the end, I decided that even though learning was one of the most important things to me, I could return to formal learning after college. The benefits I wanted from a secular college—the world-class secular education, the exposure to truly diverse people and ideas, the active Jewish community—were things I could never get in the same way after college, and were too important to me to give up. I postponed the formal learning I wanted for other experiences I wanted, and though I know not everyone can spend two years learning after college, everyone can find her own balance.


I cherish the experiences I had at secular college; they shaped the way I see the world, and I absolutely made the right decision(s) for me. But again, this decision is deeply personal. Only you know what will inspire you and what environment feels right for you. So think carefully, and remember: no decision is ever final!

More Observations on College Selection

Like Rachel, I was hesitant about “piping in” on this one, in my case because I think this decision-making process is so personal that it is difficult for me to write about it without qualifying each of my statements lest someone think it represents an absolute sentiment. However, since we now have student articulations in favor of Stern and in favor of considering other colleges, and we have the experiences of teachers who have gone to Stern but not of those who have gone to other colleges, I’ll chime in with the hopes that broadening the conversation will be of some value to some people.

First, a word about my own decision to attend a secular university. When I was looking into colleges, my first priority was a campus that had a large and vibrant Orthodox Jewish community. “Large” was important to me because, despite the positive things I knew about the smaller but strong Orthodox communities on various campuses, I was not eager for the challenge of seeking Jewish opportunities (learning, davening, dating) where they were not in surplus; some people thrive on that sort of thing, but I found the idea of it too risky. My second priority was a course selection that would quench my thirst for sophisticated intellectual engagement in a wide variety of secular subjects. A few days after my early-decision application to Penn went in the mail, the Stern representative visited Frisch, talked and gave us reading material about the rich Jewish life and Judaic and secular academic offerings at Stern, and showed us a video reflecting the same. I freaked out. It was suddenly very clear to me that I was terrified of leaving the close and safe circle of my Orthodox Jewish community and educational framework. However, I knew myself well enough to recognize that Penn might still have advantages for me personally and intellectually, and so after a few days I resumed waiting anxiously for what I hoped would be a thick envelope (“back in the day”, pre-internet[!!!], that’s how you knew you’d gotten in). Having developed a sense that Penn had the potential to fulfill my college needs, I concluded that the only other appropriate school for me would be Stern.

Penn was great in all the ways I had anticipated. I had numerous chevrutot, participated in shiurim, dated men who shared my values about life and also about the acceptable parameters of dating, and took wonderful courses in History, English, Logic, Constitutional Rights – the list goes on – with wonderful professors. I have never thought about it in the terms Rachel described below, but what she wrote resonates: the communal Shabbat and Chagim experiences remain foremost in my wonderful memories of my undergraduate years. It was the right place *for me*. Stern may have been as well – what I know of Stern back then and today certainly convinces me that, if I had to do it all over again, I would at least look into it more seriously lehatkhila. But I do not regret my choice; knowing oneself is critical in this decision-making process, and given who I was at the time, I believe that Penn was the place where I was most likely to grow intellectually as well as religiously.

Here are a few general observations as I once again watch seniors struggle with this difficult decision:

1. I’m not a big fan of the “put yourself in a challenging situation davka so that you will grow from it” approach to selecting colleges (or summer experiences, or Relationships). Many circumstances in life are inherently challenging. Sometimes they simply insert themselves into our lives, and at other times we choose them because, in the balance, they make overwhelming sense. G-d willing we do grow from them. But we don’t always; sometimes we regress. And so I would urge any senior: if you do consider colleges other than Stern, for G-d’s sake (literally!) – focus your attention on those that make it easy to maintain your halakhic observance and general avodat Hashem and to date only men who share your values!

2. I have found that the more exposure I have had to Jews across denominations and to non-Jews, the more I have been convinced that many ideals that we consider “Jewish values” – e.g. hessed, tzedaka, tzedek u-mishpat – are just as readily human values; upbringing and education make all the difference whether or not one is an Orthodox Jew. Furthermore, I think that a potential downside of remaining – as some on this blog have put it – cloistered exclusively within the frum Jewish community is that one can be sadly ignorant of all that we might learn from and contribute to G-d’s world at large. And so I would urge any senior: if you do feel that Stern is the right place for you, please do not be afraid of learning that people unlike yourself can be ethical and interesting. But never compromise your halakhic commitments in order to do so.

3. If learning Torah is important to you, keep in mind that you will certainly be able la’asot Toratekh keva at universities that have such opportunities, but please do not fool yourself into thinking that it will be as easy to maintain this as it is at a college that incorporates Limudei Kodesh into its core curriculum and in which a high proportion of students share that goal.

4. While I am certain that a Stern education can expose students to a wide variety of excellent professors and courses in General Studies, I do think that, on the whole, world-class secular educational opportunities are more readily available at other private as well as public universities. As a person who almost instinctively appreciates secular knowledge both within the framework of Torah U-Madda and for its own sake, I don’t think there is anything wrong with embracing that value. But, as Mrs. Sinensky has written, each student needs to decide the degree of that value in her life.

5. Anticipating college (as well as your year in Israel) may be the first experience you have in imagining yourself as an adult with adult choices to make. On the other hand, for many if not most of you, the conversations about it will often take place with your parents. They frequently – and appropriately – will express a personal stake in your choice, and they will frequently have something important to say about the financial element of your decision. Please try to tow the line maturely between manifesting independence and maintaining kibbud av va-em.

Be-hatzlaha to all of you with this decision.

Chewing Gum

Penina Cohen asks: I know that if 72 minutes pass in between eating and benching, you may not bench. Does chewing gum within the 72 minutes count as eating and therefore the 72 minutes begins after the gum is finished, or does it not count?

Hi Penina,
I think that the 72 minutes start after your actual "meal" is over. Since gum is not a part of your meal, the 72 minutes would start when you ate the last actual food that constituted your meal.

On the Other Hand

I wasn't going to pipe in on this one, but I feel a need to play devil's advocate.

In a way, my story is the opposite of Jenn's. I was always convinced that I was going to Stern, until at some point last year when I decided why not see what else is out there. So I visited and did my research, and I have this to respond to Jenn's points (I have her okay on the matter):

1. The fact that Stern exists today is incredible. But the fact that something exists is not a reason to go somewhere. The freedom to practice religion openly in secular campus and have a minyan three times a day and kosher food in every dining hall on campus also didn't exist in most of our grandparents time.

2. In terms of learning, I definitely agree with Jenn and Mrs. Knoll and Mrs. Sinensky that that's a personal decision everybody needs to make on their own, in terms of what kind of environment is most conducive to your personal growth in Torah. And there are undeniably more opportunities at Stern. That said, I think the level of top notch serious learning that goes on on some of these secular campuses has been downplayed. Go to any Yavneh (or whatever they call the Orthodox branch of Hillel) website of most of the mainstream secular colleges that Yeshiva graduates go to and you'll see that there are almost always shiurim every night. Walk into the beit midrash at any given time and, (depending on the specific college), and you'll most probably find people learning independently and bchevruta. And they're learning serious stuff, too. The opportunities are right before you. No, they won't be forced upon you like they will at Stern (which again, is definitely not a bad thing). It will require an ounce of self motivation, but I think Ma'ayanot has well supplied us with that.

3. I think that there's a good chance that had I not gone to Maayanot (or an institution that would have provided my with an equal love and education in Gemara, if such an institution exists) I wouldn't have considered anything but Stern. But davka because Ma'ayanot has provided such a stellar background in Jewish studies (not even specifically Gemara, actually), I feel that I can explore other options. Ma'ayanot prides itself on its unique approach to Jewish education, on its ability to produce independent learners and thinkers, people who have the skills and ability to continue their pursuit of Torah study on their own. If that's the case (which thank God it is), then why should an environment in which everyone around has the same basic set of values be a factor (or necessity) in choosing a college experience? Hasn't Ma'ayanot prepared us for just that- to excercise our beliefs and continue our learning even (or davka) when not everyone around us is?

4. In terms of being a "worldly person." Jenn's lucky, she lives in the city. Most of us don't, and we have no idea what diversity is. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a believer of diversity for the sake of diversity. But like Mrs. Knoll said, I really think it's true that exposure to different ways of life makes you rethink your practices, and from the people I know in secular colleges, most of the time this has a truly positive effect. After all, how many of us actually know the origins of why we wash on bread or how to explain the reconciliation of evolution and sefer breishit? Exposure, as I've learned from speaking with frum kids in secular colleges, allows for both a better understanding and a greater appreciation of where you've come from.

5. Yes, at Stern you are surrounded by a majority of student and faculty body that share your relgious beliefs, but the fact is that Stern's general sense of Jewish community is not comparable to those found in secular colleges with strong Jewish populations. Davening with a minyan three times a day, chagim on campus, the Shabbat environment and all that includes (zmirot, slow shira, student divrei torah and shiurim) are a huge part of the religious experience at secular colleges, a factor that Stern for the most part lacks (because of it's nature of an all girls school, and its huge number of frum kids).

I think I covered the basics, though there's always more to say. I don't mean to write off Stern (I may even end up there)- it has all the advantages that Jenn and Mrs. Sinensky and Mrs. Knoll presented. But I think that it's crucial to keep in mind that not choosing Stern doesn't mean that you're making an active decision that Judaism and Torah isn't the most important thing in your life. These decisions are tough ones...

Thanks- Rachel Friedman

A Student on Stern

Hi,

So I heard there was a post on the blog about Stern College and I decided to check it out. I don’t really know how this blog thing works but I had a few comments being that I am applying to Stern and I strongly stand behind my decision.

A year ago today I would have never imagined that I would be applying and considering Stern. I remember my father telling me throughout sophmore and junior year to “get excited for Stern” and I would look at his as if he were crazy and tell him that there was NO WAY I was going to Stern. I had this picture in my head of finally breaking out of my “Ma’ayanot Jewish Bubble” (ignoring that I live in the city where I am not really THAT isolated from the “real world”) and being part of a secular college where Id be able to meet all different types of people and become a “more worldly” person. I thought that college would be what I saw in the movies and I couldn’t wait to sort of “break free” and get away from the dual curriculum and dress codes that became somewhat a burden to me.

This all lasted until this past summer when I was able to sit down and look at my life and really start to think about what I wanted out of it. I knew I would come into school and be bombarded with college and Israel applications and I wanted to start the process to avoid the stress I knew it would come with. It was during this time that I really became attracted to the idea of a Jewish college and the more I thought about it the more I began to really believe in what was going through my head.Just to share a few of my thoughts:

1. I think it is extremely important for every Jewish girl (with a few exceptions) to look into Stern. I know that most of us take for granted the fact that we are given the incredible opportunity to go to a school with a dual curriculum. We don’t realize what an amazing thing it is to be educated both in the secular field as well as in Jewish studies. Years ago, this opportunity wasn’t available.. Ask your grandparents, they’ll tell you how it wasn’t so easy for them.

2. On a personal level, I know that if I were to attend a secular college I wouldn’t necessarily pick up a book and learn Torah in my free time. (I know this is not the case for everyone) I remember thinking to myself that if I were to attend a secular college would that be saying “Im done, im finished with my jewish education?!” and truthfully I think that yes, while of course I would be able to learn with my friends or even on my own, it would be nothing compared to what I would be learning at Stern! While this might not be at the top of everyones priorities, think of it this way.. We have the rest of our lives to live as Jews, how could you give up an opportunity to educate yourself in the material you will need to continue your life as a religious woman?! (including raising a Jewish family which all of us iyH will be doing!) This is something every girl needs to consider when she starts to think about the rest of her life, “do I wanna enhance my religious self?” Now, yes of course life will go on and you will be an educated Jew regardless of whether you attend Stern or not but the more the merrier! And to just repeat. How could you give up such a tremendous opportunity! And do you really want to put a end (or at least slow down) your Jewish education? These are things I think are really important to think about.

3. This may not apply to everyone but since I live in the city and don’t consider myself “sheltered” or “Naïve” I asked myself this question : Do you consider yourself a “worldly” or “street smart” person? Have you been exposed to things outside of your Jewish community? If you answered yes, which I did, then you don’t need to worry about the whole idea of missing out on a “Real college experience” because you know what’s out there and going to Stern really wont effect your worldly-ness. You got it already, you don’t need the “exposure to the real world “ that “happens” when you go to a secular college.

4. Also, Don’t keep telling yourself that you are keeping yourself in your Jewish circle (in a negative tone) because college is college, Sterns in the city, its not isolated from the world, just because its only made up of Jewish girls doesn’t mean its got the same “isolated in your Jewish circle- high school” feel. Its not.

Now everything I said, of course, doesn’t apply to everyone and it doesn’t mean that I think EVERY GIRL MUST GO TO STERN but im sure almost everyone can relate to at least one of the points I made and I think its important that every girl weigh her options and really open their eyes and look at Stern without a “pre-concieved” attitude and also, realize the incredible opportunity they would be giving up if they didn’t give Stern the chance.Thanks---Jennifer Herskowitz

Response to Mrs. Knoll

I am so happy that Mrs. Knoll posted her thoughts on Stern College! I hear the 4 main points that Mrs. Knoll outlines regarding the potential benefits of attending one of the Ivies, and have some additional thoughts.

Regarding point A)—the potential religious growth that one can experience from being in a less-religious environment: I think that while this can be true for some people, one really needs to be honest with herself regarding if she is one of these people who davka “needs” to be in a “counter-culture” to grow religiously, or if she isn’t like most people who thrive by being surrounded by familiar values, positive religious role models, and readily available religious opportunities. This can be a difficult decision to make, and one that I think could be best made by introspecting and discussing with teachers, parents, advisors, friends, etc.

Regarding point B)—that the education at the Ivies may be superior to that at Stern College: I think that it is important to think about whether having the absolute “best” secular education is important to you, or if having a really amazing one that is not “the best” is something that works for you. To be honest, there are some works of literature that I wish I would have been exposed to in a more structured setting, and had I been in those Ivy required freshman seminars (I think Columbia calls it "LITHUM" or something), would have read. At the same time, I absolutely feel that my Stern education equipped me to read those works on my own, and I have read and B"H will read some of the works that I didn’t get to read in college.

Regarding point C)—that there is sophistication that comes from being new experiences, etc.: I think that is definitely true, based on my conversations with friends and colleagues about these issues. At the same time, there are other opportunities that we have in our lives to be exposed to these things if we choose, and that time necessarily doesn’t need to be during college.

Mrs. Knoll writes, “I genuinely believe it is a legitimate choice to go Ivy, but don’t do it without at least a glance behind. At least recognize that the same way as one sacrifices some degree of secular education by not going Ivy, she equally, if not more, sacrifices some degree of Jewish education by not going to Stern.”

I 100% agree that there are reasons to go Ivy, as long as the decision is made considering all the above points. The point Mrs. Knoll is making is that there is a significant sacrifice that a person makes if she chooses not to go to Stern. Stern does not just provide the opportunity to take Judaic Studies classes on a high level, but also offers the opportunity to be in an environment with religious role models, to be near a packed Beit Midrash, and to have all sorts of other religious opportunities at one’s fingertips.

On a personal note: During my first year at Stern, a Columbia application sat on my desk for a few months. After my first semester, when I had figured out which were the most challenging and interesting classes, I didn’t feel that I needed Columbia to get what I wanted out of my college experience. I found the Honors Program to be fantastic, and found the opportunity to write my thesis in Philosophy with Dr. Shatz to be a once-in-a-lifetime experience that I gained tremendously from in many respects. However, even before I joined the Honors Program (I only joined after my first year because I forgot to apply before!), I found many of the non-Honors classes that I chose to be truly wonderful.

In short—Stern is not a “one size fits all” option. But neither are the Ivies. As with most “big” decisions in life, there is a lot to consider. And if you make the wrong decision, you’re not stuck either. But it is definitely worth thinking about these issues seriously, because college will be a significant part of shaping who you are as an individual and as a Jew.

Stern College

I just wanted to share my thoughts about Stern College with the student body (or whoever reads the blog). I want to say at the outset that I do NOT think everyone should go to Stern. This is for a number of reasons: a) Some people will grow more Jewishly on a secular college campus than they would in Stern. Some people thrive more when they are in a situation in which they really make a noticeable difference and must take leadership positions, whether officially by having a position in the Hillel or unofficially simply by standing out as an example of a committed Jew. In addition, some people grow more when surrounded by people who are NOT like them, which forces them to be more genuine and sincere in their own practice. If you’ve only kept kosher when surrounded by other people who are all also keeping kosher, doing so does not necessarily express deep commitment to halacha – it’s just what everyone in your world does. But being the only one in class who can’t eat the popcorn that’s being passed around makes you think seriously about your practices. This can have a detrimental effect on many people, but there are also many who are strengthened by it, and whose practices become more substantive and meaningful. In addition, in a secular setting, one has to be able to explain one’s beliefs and practices to others, which can also force one to develop a deeper understanding of her own religion. Finally, being exposed to other cultures often makes one appreciate the beauty and wisdom of one’s own. (Again, this can sometimes unfortunately have the opposite effect, but I recognize that for some people, it has a positive one.) b) I think one has to admit that the secular education offered in an Ivy League University is better than the one offered at Stern. My friends who attended Ivy Universities had significantly more readings and more papers than I did. This was based partially on the fact that since at Stern, we were balancing a dual curriculum and were often taking seven courses a semester in contrast to the Ivies’ 4, we simply did not have the time to devote hours of preparation prior to each course. In addition, since the Ivies only accept the “crème de la crème,” the professors expected and demanded more. c) There is a certain sophistication that comes from being exposed to new experiences, different cultures, eclectic classes and people that can deepen one’s character and perspective in significant ways. d) The Ivy name on a resume can help get into a graduate program, land a job, etc.

HOWEVER, what I think is critical for any college-bound frum Jew to recognize is that even though the Ivies do surpass Stern in a number of important areas, Stern surpasses the Ivies in other areas, including academic ones. As I wrote above, I do believe the Ivies offer a superior education in secular studies than Stern does. But Stern not only offers a superior education in Torah than the Ivies do, the Ivies aren’t even in the same league! The degree to which one’s secular education suffers in Stern, I think, pales in comparison to the degree to which one’s Jewish education suffers in a secular college. I think it is one’s prerogative once she is graduating high school to decide that her secular studies are more important to her than her Judaic ones, or one may feel that she is more capable of supplementing Judaic studies on her own than secular ones (though I am not sure why this would be – it would seem to me to be easier to analyze an English text on one’s own than an Aramaic or Hebrew one). But my main point is simply this – I genuinely believe it is a legitimate choice to go Ivy, but don’t do it without at least a glance behind. At least recognize that the same way as one sacrifices some degree of secular education by not going Ivy, she equally, if not more, sacrifices some degree of Jewish education by not going to Stern.

One last point I want to express is that, as I wrote in the first paragraph, one of the primary advantages of a secular university over Stern is the exposure to different people from different cultures and backgrounds. I do believe that such exposure can be extremely valuable in terms of one’s own sophistication, depth of character, sensitivity, worldliness, etc. However, I think it’s important to point out that we often idealize these communities and view them as some type of intellectual paradise, while forgetting about all the drinking, sex, drugs, and who-knows-what-else that also go on at every college campus in America. So these communities do provide certain invaluable opportunities and experiences, but it’s important when making a decision not to forget about the darker side as well.

To sum up, I do believe that there are very legitimate reasons to choose a secular college – they do offer many valuable intellectual and social experiences that Stern does not, but make the decision with your eyes open, recognizing that Stern also offers many valuable intellectual and social experiences that a secular college does not.

Re Lashon Hara & the Torah

What an interesting conversation. I once heard a shiur from Rabbi Saul Zucker in Camp Morasha. He was explaining why lashon hara would be worse than motzi shem ra. Isn't worse to say something bad about a person that is not true than something that is? In Western law, truth is an absolute defense against charges of libel or slander, how can it be better to make something up than to simply report the truth?

He answered (based on a Rambam) that when we speak lashon hara, besides the bein adam l'chaveiro offense, we are also committing a sin bein adam lamakom. Hashem is meant to be the sole judge in the world, to the point that when human shoftim judge, it is only permissible because they are serving as God's agents (-the Torah calls a court Elohim). So when people speak motzi shem ra, they has offended the person and told a lie - both terrible crimes, but comparable to other similar offenses. When they tell lashon hara though, they have usurped the domain of Hashem by judging the object of the talk.

If so, much of the damage caused by lashon hara is not relevant to the Torah, as Hashem Himself is doing the judging.

As a side point this would also explain the otherwise bizarre discussion of the חטא המרגלים as being lashon hara against Eretz Yisrael. Though we find that Moshe was obligated to show הכרת הטוב to the Nile & earth, that is pretty clearly an inwardly directed מדות issue (no?). Why would lashon hara against a land (even Eretz Yisrael) be so terrible, if LH were primarily a bein adam l'chaveiro issue? Perhaps Rabbi Zucker's approach makes it easier to understand.

de'oraita vs. de'Rabbanan

Hooray! Why- aanot is back!! I would just like to express my appreciation for the blog, and how much I enjoy, learn from, and stalk the blog. It was an amazing initiative for Maayanot, and reading it daily is truly a favorite past time of mine.

As for my question: Over the summer and in school, I encountered the idea of mitzvot being di'oraita or d'rabanan many times. On the one hand, we see mitvot d'rabanan as very important commandments, and some even go as far as to say that they are considered d'oraita based on a pasuk in Devarim, about listening to the words of the rabbis. On the other hand, we see that there is a major discrepancy between d'oraita and d'rabanan when discussing the severity of the mitvot. It seems like we sometimes inply that breaking a mitzva d'rabanan isn't so bad. It is understood that we must keep the mitzvot, and they are still very important, but they seem almost second rate to d'oraita. How do we reconcile these two ideas about mizvot d'rabananan?-- -Penina Cohen


Hi Penina!

Rather than answer your question, I thought I would add more food for thought (or more confusion!) regarding the issue. On the one hand, it seems pretty clear, as you wrote, that de'oraitas take precedence over de'Rabbanans. After all, the former is from God Himself and the latter, "only" from the Rabbis. But on the other hand, consider the sugya that you may have learned back in 9th grade in Masechet Rosh HaShanah (29b) about what happens when RH falls on Shabbat (as it did this year) - Even though GOD gave us an explicit commandment to blow shofar on RH (without saying that Shabbat should be any different), the RABBIS decided that due to a concern that people might come to carry the shofar and thereby desecrate Shabbat, we should NOT fulfill our mitzvah de'oraita of blowing shofar on RH. The principle behind this is called yesh koach be'yad Chachamim la'akor davar min haTorah. It only applies in situations of shev v'al ta'aseh (the Rabbis can tell us to refrain from fulfilling a Torah obligation but cannot tell us to actively violate a lo ta'aseh), but still, the very fact that the Rabbis can essentially take precedence over the Torah in certain situations does raise exactly your question - what exactly is the relationship between de'oraitas and de'rabbanans? Interestingly, in the RH example, the Rabbis told us to refrain from fulfilling one de'oraita (shofar) only so as to protect another de'oraita (Shabbat); they did not simply decide to override a de'oraita for their own sake. But the fact that they have this power at all is still fascinating.

Another related issue: Did you ever learn the sugya of osek b'mitzvah patur min hamitzvah - if you're involved in performing one mitzvah, you're exempt from performing another? (We used to teach it in Ma'ayanot but then too many of the elementary schools started doing it.) Anyway, a really interesting question debated by Rishonim and Achronim is: what if the first mitzvah you're involved in is a mitzvah de'Rabbanan and then a mitzvah de'oraita comes along - Does your involvement in a de'Rabbanan exempt you from the de'oraita??? Hmmm....

Anyway, hope you're not too frustrated that my response contains more questions than answers but you raised an excellent and very complicated issue that doesn't have a simple, clear-cut, straight-forward answer. Keep thinking about it and let us know what you come up with!

Mrs. Dena Knoll

Post-Wedding Thoughts

I was at a wedding tonight, and during the singing of "im eshkachech Yerushalayim" I began thinking to myself: How often, besides for on Tisha B'Av and at weddings, do I spend a few quiet moments thinking about Yerushalayim? The Shulchan Aruch notes a number of "zecher l'Churban" practices, including tearing kriah when we see Yerushalayim, and leaving a corner of our homes unpainted. However, these things do not necessarily help us consistently to remember Yerushalayim and its centrality to Jewish communal and religious life. There is, however, a bracha that we say in Shmoneh Esreh twice (or three times) a day about Yerushalayim. I hope we can use this as our daily/twice daily reminder to think about Yerushalayim, and not just leave it for the once-in-a-while weddings!

Schar Mitzvah B'hai Alma?

Dear Why-aanot,
Before I sit down to do my homework, I usually check the blog, one of my favorite websites. Tonight, as I sat down to write a college essay, I decided to first check the blog. I am still not sure why I decided to do so considering I had checked it about 15 minutes earlier, but I did. To my surprise there were two new posts! I immediately read both and coincidentally (or not) Rabbi Lamm's derasha related perfectly to the college essay I was writing, and I was even able to reference a few ideas from it! I just wanted to say thank you!
Jordana Wietschner

Noach

• Here is a shiur by Rabbi Eytan Mayer (husband of our Israel liason, Mrs. Mayer) that came up in mishmar last night, about how the mabul was a reversal of the creation of the world. (If you're looking for someone to read regularly, he's a good choice.) I would add, the following: See Rashi ז:כג- ד"ה אך נח and note the supremacy of animal over man reversing the order (both in terms of creation chronology and G-d’s command) of day 6. If the world was created in progressing order of advancement, then the מבול reversed this process as well, with the waters of day 2 overpowering the vegetation of day 3, which at least survived. The constellations of day 4 survived the flood, but hibernated (רש"י ח:כב, ד"ה ויום). The sea creatures of day 5 outlived the animals of day 6 etc.
• This is a famous comedy routine from Bill Cosby on Noah. (if time is short, check out the shiur first.
• This morning, Rachel Friedman spoke about the interplay between Torah and science in the Parsha, specifically as related to the Ramban. Rabbi Yitzchak Etshalom discusses similar issues in his essay on Noach. Rabbi Jonathan Sacks (Chief Rabbi of England) looks at the this week's and last week's parsha through the prism of developmental psychology.

Have a great shabbos.

Does the Torah Itself Speak Lashon Hara?

The eleventh grade is studying Bemidbar perek 12, the lashon hara that Miriam and Aharon spoke about Moshe, and the question arose: isn't learning this story itself lashon hara - about Miriam and Aharon? How about learning the story of Noach's drunkenness in this week's parashah? Or of Adam and Chava's sin? Why are we allowed to discuss and analyze negative stories about biblical figures?

One possible answer (offered, on different occasions, by the aunt-and-niece team of Mrs. and Yael Herzog) is that God Himself gives the "heter" to speak the lashon hara by including the story in the Torah. Both Tzipi Shteingart and Mrs. Cohen suggested that just as speaking negatively about someone is permissible "le-to'elet,"(for a halakhically permitted purpose, such as to protect someone from financial loss) the stories of our founders' sins are included "le-to'elet" - so that we may learn from them. Indeed, Mrs. Kraft pointed out, it puts the responsiblity on us to make sure that we study these stories with that goal in mind, to ask ourselves: what genuinely applicable lesson can we take from this?

Mrs. Herzog also cited the Kuzari - what other religion dares to be so open about the flaws of its founders and leaders? Just as the greatest people in our history made mistakes yet were able to overcome them and develop a relationship with Hashem, so may we strive to do the same.

Kiddush / Chillul Hashem

On Sunday, I took some of my kids to Madison Square Garden to see what has become an annual exhibition game between the Knicks & Maccabi Tel Aviv to benefit a Tel Aviv orphanage. It was a great afternoon; I saw a bunch of Ma'ayanoters there & the Israeli team was surprisingly competitive. The fans were well behaved, but enthusiastically rooting against the home team. Between the fans and the commercials that made it clear that the whole event was for tzedaka, it was a wonderful kiddush Hashem, with the exception of a ten minute portion when the Maccabi coach was ejected after incessantly screaming at the refs, only instead of walking peacefully back to the locker room, he refused to get off the court, leading Rabbi Grossman, the founder of Migdal Ohr to try to make peace.

Great Derasha by Rabbi Lamm on Parshat Bereishit

Christian Yichud

At the beginning of an otherwise uninteresting column, Newsweek's religion reporter Lisa Miller relays a great story about legendary preacher, Billy Graham:

Billy Graham had a rule. He was a powerful man, away from his
wife and
children more often than he was with them. Aware of the
significance of his
reputation and convinced of the moral value of the
Gospel message, he took
precautions to guard against his own human weakness.
He gave his ministry
colleagues explicit instructions: never leave me alone
in a room with a
woman who is not my wife.

Sukkot

Here are a few resources for those looking for some reading material over the chag.

• First, YU's Sukkot To Go, the publication that you've heard so much about. Again, this issue is highlighted by an article by our own Mrs. Knoll.
• Also, you can check the various sites on the side of this blog, most of which have their own divrei Torah about Sukkot.
• Here is a very brief overview of many of the laws of Sukkot, produced by Nishmat (which reminds me - Aviva, what did your rebbeim say about the 2nd day of Yom Tov - see below).
• Finally, equally important, but not as often studied, here is an overview of the rules of Chol Hamoed.

I hope these are useful and enjoyable (supplementing your learning of Maayanei Torah, of course). Everyone have a great Yom Tov.

Vegetarianism and Shabbat/Yom Tov

If someone is a vegetarian, but she prioritizes strict halacha above her vegetarianism, should she eat meat on Shabbos, for Oneg Shabbos? What about Yom Tov, for Simchat Yome Tov? Should she even be a vegetarian?
Thanks!
~Aliza Gottlieb

Dear Aliza,

First, I must commend you on your general approach. Many people are committed to halacha, and many are committed to broader values such as vegetarianism, but far less people struggle to strike the balance between them. I also commend your ultimate decision to choose halacha over vegetarianism, if necessary.


In terms of your particular question, poskim are divided as to whether or not there is an obligation to eat meat on Shabbat and Yom Tov. The more common view is that there is no obligation to eat meat on Shabbat, although some require it. The question of meat on yom tov remains hotly debated (see the Gemara Pesachim 108b, Rambam Hilchot Yom Tov 6:18, Beit Yosef Orach Chaim 529; those sources and others can be found here: http://www.yutorah.org/_shiurim/Simchat%20Yom%20Tov.html). My personal view is that the simple understanding of the Gemara and Shulchan Aruch is that there is no obligation to eat meat on Shabbat or Yom Tov, but others disagree. So your best bet might be to ask a rabbi to whom you generally ask halachik questions.

Best,
Rabbi Sinensky

Re Germany and Holocaust Denial

What a story for the yemei teshuva.

Observing yom tov sheni In Israel when you are there for the year

Since I'm (about to) spend[ing] the year in Israel, the question of whether or not I should keep 2 days of yom tov or one has come up. I probably will ask my rebbeim at Nishmat, but I was just wondering what your opinion is on this issue. - Aviva Novick

Rav Aharon Lichtenstein of Yeshivat Har Etzion always told my husband and me that the (colloquial) "day and a half" option is most correct for people who have not made aliyah, even if they will be there for the year. That means tefila of chol, but observing issur melacha and tchum Shabbat. Hence, one may get a ride within the tchum from an Israeli, or benefit from the melacha of an Israeli who is permitted to do melacha. It is an odd state of in-between, but it does allow the galut Jew to participate in some limited forms of chol hamoed activity on yom tov sheni, at the same time that one acknowledges one's status as a visitor from galut and not a permanent resident of the land of Israel. The advice of your rebbeim in the program you attend is probably a good option for you to follow. Shalom, and Gmar Chatima Tova, Rookie Billet

Germany and Holocaust Denial (in light of Ahmadinejad's visit to the UN)

Thought you might find this interesting:

Germany Will Walk Out of U.N. if Ahmadinejad Denies Holocaust

Published on: Yesterday at 06:39 PM

New York - Germany's foreign ministry is sending a clear message to Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad ahead of his Wednesday speech to the United Nations — don't deny the Holocaust.

If the rogue Iranian leaders does in fact make such a statement before the General Assembly, German diplomats will walk out. And Germany wants other European Union countries to follow, the foreign ministry was quoted by Reuters.

"We will leave the hall if President Ahmadinejad denies the Holocaust or makes anti-Semitic statements ... we are making efforts towards a unified European position," a spokesman told Reuters on Tuesday.

As recently as last week, Ahmadinejad has called the Holocaust a lie, repeating the inflammatory statement as world powers weigh how to deal with Iran's nuclear ambitions.

Stating that the Holocaust did not occur during World War Two is a crime in Germany. Last week Germany's Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier condemned Ahmadinejad's most recent denial and called him a disgrace to his country, Reuters reported.

News Source: Fox News

Post Rosh Hashana Thoughts

A couple of thoughts on our way from Rosh Hashana to Yom Kippur.

• First, a recommendation. I read most of the YU produced Rosh Hashana To Go booklet, and while I enjoyed some articles more than others, the overall quality of the publication was outstanding. Many of the articles are still relevant for Yom Kippur, and there are still copies in a box outside the Student Activity Center. A specific highlight for me was a sermon by Rabbi Norman Lamm that he gave in 1962 about the three different women whose crying we discuss on Rosh Hashana. He masterfully contrasts the tears weaving top notch drash with relevant, timeless lessons and fascinating political messages about Cuba, communism and Soviet Jewry that provide an interesting window into his world nearly 50 years ago. I can't wait for the Sukkot edition which we will have available next week, highlighted by an article by our own Mrs. Knoll.
• My first year in Maayanot at the Yom Iyun I gave a shiur tracing the roots of Rosh Hashana as a Yom Teshuva, as we don't find it described that day. My theory was pretty involved, and went back to Mitzrayim. While I stand by the shiur, I wonder if it might trace back even further. We repeatedly refer to RH as the day that the Earth was created (which should be familiar to many of you from your 9th grade Gemara class). This is one opinion among the tana'im, but even according to this tana, it would be the the anniversary of the creation of man on day 6 - not heaven and Earth on day 1. If so, RH is also the anniversary of the first sin - the disaster of the Eitz Hada'at. The Midrash teaches that Adam did Teshuva for this sin, and was forgiven. While I don't know when he did the Teshuva, at the very least it is the anniversary of sin, which is a good reason by itself to institute it as a Yom Teshuva.
• I hope you all saw the inaugural edition of this year's Maayanei Torah, under the new leadership of Mrs. Shapiro and Talia Friedman. It was a great issue, highlighted by two consecutive essays about the connection between Purim and Yom Kippur (Yom kiPurim). Some other answers that I like are the following: Generally, Jewish holidays are split between Torah and prayer on one hand, and festive celebration, expressed by eating and drinking on the other. Purim and Yom Kippur split the two days, where we have Taanit Esther preceding Purim, and a mitzva to eat on erev Yom Kippur. My favorite approach is that just as on Purim we where masks & costumes to symbolize that our bodies are also fake coverings that mask our true selves, our souls. That is why we (not you!) drink, because the wine reveals the true individual (נכנס יין יצא סוד). So too on Yom Kippur, we dress and act like angels, but our message to Hashem is that today is not the day of charades - this is the true us. Really, at our core, we are pure (אלקי נשמה שנתת בי טהורה היא). It is the rest of the year that we masquerade as sinners due to the difficulties that we encounter revealing this true self, but our essence is the Yom Kippur version.

Welcome Back!

Welcome to the Maayanot Jewish Studies faculty blog. We were in a state of quasi-hibernation over the summer break, but if you didn't check in over the summer, I recommend taking a quick look to see what you missed. If you are new to the blog, I strongly recommend that you explore our archives.

Most of the questions submitted last year have been addressed, though some are still being worked on. If your question hasn't been answered, please resubmit it. We are clearing the queue, and are ready for a whole new bunch of questions, so put us to work.

The first semester of this experiment was a huge success - I have received amazing feedback from people outside the school, and have heard reports of other schools trying to launch similar programs. The lifeblood of the blog, and the formula for its success has been the wonderful questions that you all ask. Maayanot students are constantly thinking, questioning and thirsting to know more. This is the environment that can make this year even better, and we all look forward to even greater things this coming year - please help us make it happen.

The Cleansing Waters of the מבול

Water, while being a symbol of sustenance, is also a symbol of cleansing. When looking at the flood in the times of Noach, it seems like it is G-d cleansing the world. Is it safe to say, then, that G-d made a mistake with how He created the world the first time, so He had to cleanse it and start all over again? - (anonymous)


I think that you are right in your description of water, in that is both a symbol of sustenance and a symbol of cleansing. And I agree that when looking at the מבול, it does seem that ה' was symbolically cleansing the world as He destroyed it. But I think that instead of viewing the מבול as a result of ה'’s mistake, we should view it as resulting from the mistakes of mankind.


(Most of what I’m about to say was first taught to me by Rabbi Haber in MMY, and was subsequently expanded upon by a variety of other sources:)


When ה' created the world, His purpose was for all of mankind to serve Him (not just Jews, as most people assume—Jews didn’t exist yet!). When He created אדם וחוה, He commanded them to multiply: “פרו ורבו ומלאו את הארץ.” But they were not only supposed to have children, they were also supposed to pass on the מסורה of עבודת ה' to their children, who were then supposed to pass it on to their children, etc., so that every generation throughout the history of the world would be serving ה'.


But we know that not everyone in the world today serves ה'—what happened?


It all started with קין, who was so disappointed with his rejected קרבן that he murdered his younger brother. The eldest son of אדם וחוה, who should have embraced the avodat עבודת ה' taught to him by his parents, instead committed one of the gravest sins! He therefore cast himself away from the מסורה of עבודת ה', and with הבל dead, the only son of אדם וחוה able to continue the מסורה was שת.


שת then had a son named named אנוש, about whom it says (בראשית ד:כו): "אז הוחל לקרא בשם ה'". According to חז"ל (as quoted by רש"י), “הוחל” comes from לשון חילול, signifying the beginning of עבודה זרה, since in his time the people began to disgrace the name of ה' and began worshipping people and objects (to understand how people could possibly go from עבודת ה' to עבודה זרה so quickly, see הלכות עבודת כוכבים פרק א in רמב"ם’s משנה תורה). After אנוש’s time things got progressively worse, to the point that by דור המבול mankind had strayed so far from what ה' had originally intended for them, that He decided to start over with the one man who was doing things right: נח.


In summary, ה' didn’t cleanse the world from His own mistake, but from mankind’s mistakes. And in His רחמים, ה' decided to recreate it to give mankind a second chance. However, even after the מבול, not all mankind worshipped ה': of בני נח, only שם did; of בני שם only אברהם did; of בני אברהם only יצחק did; of בני יצחק only יעקב did. And then, finally, all of בני יעקב (= ישראל) worshipped ה', which is why He decided to make בני ישראל His chosen nation.

נקמה

Just to wrap this up, the Sefer HaChinuch says something very interesting about the prohibition of taking revenge. If asked, I think most of us would categorize this as a מצות בין אדם לחבירו. Yet, he explains that the reason for the mitzvah is because taking revenge reflects a lack of אמונה. If I truly believed, I would realize that anything this person did to me, I deserved - because Hashem made it happen and there is no reason to be angry at the other person. (The implications of this approach on the question of how free will coexists with divine providence is beyond the scope of this post).

Therefore, vengeance itself is not inherently a bad midda. By strict justice, or on a בין אדם לחבירו level, there is no reason not to respond in kind to someone the way they treated you. It is only the issue of אמונה that tells us not to take נקמה. When that is out of the picture - either because God is the actor, or we are taking the revenge on His command - vengeance is appropriate.

More on נקמה and the כהן גדול

Some answers, from Ma'ayanot Alum (and Why-a'anot regular) Aviva Novick:

I remember learning in 9th grade halacha (yay Rabbi Besser's class!) that a talmid chacham is allowed to take nekama because he is not acting on his own behalf - he is taking revenge on behalf of Hashem and Torah. So based on the fact that Hashem does seem somewhat ok with nekama, I think at it's core it is like all middot: it's good but only in moderation and when it's used appropriately. The Rambam says that when someone is too extreme in a certain middah, they should aim to go to the other extreme so that they will end up in the middle. Humans by nature are have a desire to take revenge - they are on the "too much nekama" extreme. Perhapes we only have the mitzvah of "lo tikom" because we need to go to the other extreme. Hashem on the other hand knows when it's good to use nekama and when it's not, and by Him commanding Bnei Yisrael to take revenge, He's showing them that this is the correct time to use nekama.

I think there's a lot of truth in this. I will B"N come back to this soon, ,but interested parties should see the Sefer Hachinuch on this mitzvah.

I heard a nice answer about the midrash with the kohen gadol's mom's cookies from a scholar in residence at shomrei torah in Fair Lawn. A few snacks are not enough for a rotzeach b'shogeg to stop davening for the death of the kohen gadol. but in order for tefila to "work," it has to be completely sincere. the mother of the kohen gadol is hoping that by doing something nice for the rotzeach, he will not be able to daven for the death of her son whole-heartedly - he will still want her son to die, just not as strongly.
His other answer which is not as "nice" was derived from a close reading of the midrash. the midrash does not say the mother of the "kohen gadol," it says the "mothers of the kohanim." the p'shat way of interpreting this is that the various mothers of the kohanim gidolim over time would have this custom, and it's in plural because over time there have been many kohanim gidolim. but sometimes there were multiple kohaim gidolim at a time - like if the kohen gadol became tamey and they needed to appoint a replacement, when the original kohen gadol was tahor again, both kohanim were kohanim gidolim in a way. a rotzeach b'shogeg would be free upon the death of either kohan gadol. So each mother made cookies for the killers in the arei miklat to try to get them to daven for the death of the other kohan gadol and not her son.

Interesting, I also like the first one better, (though I like mine best). אילו ואילו (ואילו?) דברי אלוקים חיים.